I'm glad for any initiative that leads to less crap reaching the markets that is either dangerous or has a shelf life of a few months before breaking down. The EU as a whole will become even less competitive if we don't re-gain some level of quality awareness and place quality at the center of the things we consume and produce.
This should not be understood as anti-China but should apply to all products on the EU market. China has some well-respected quality-conscious consumer brands (e.g. Hifiman, Fenix Lights, DJI, Anker, Govee...) but it seems a lot of smaller companies there put easy revenue over any concerns for quality.
I want to emphasise your latter point - I have a Lenovo work laptop, Fenix head torches and various other high quality Chinese products. Any company selling into the EU needs to meet the QC and regulatory requirements, and many well known Chinese brands already do so, and so their products naturally sell at a premium to the cheapest options. A little more thought in purchasing by buyers would go a long way in helping the commissions efforts to reduce harmful goods.
I've noticed that there's currently some kind of manufacturing consent going on in the EU, presumably preparing the population for, which I claim, plans to make it very difficult for European consumers to order from China directly.
Disclaimer: I gladly buy from local EU businesses, but not if they're just a middleman charging an unreasonable fee for importing Chinese-made products.
I saw an electronic scooter in a shop here in Slovenia, but the name of the brand was unknown to me, and the price was quite high. (1500 EUR!)
I searched the brand on the internet, but nothing turned up. Just Slovenian shops selling that same model at a similar price. [1] This seemed strange to me.
So then I screenshot one of those pages and search via image. Turns out that you can buy the exact same scooter on TaoBao for 952 RMB. (~114 EUR.) [2]
This is an absolutely ordinary situation. It was much the same when I was purchasing a bike for my kid -- 300 EUR here vs. 250 RMB there, for exactly the same bike. The purchasing power gap between USD|EUR and RMB is immense.
(I try not to talk about it too much, because it's the sort of thing that really upsets politicians and local vendors, and they'll want to find a way to make it more painful. It's a secret "life-hack" but for real.)
This is the same for almost all electronics. If you buy a toaster, how much do you think it really costs to manufacture the €20 no name brand vs the €80 Delonghi branded one? In both cases, the price the customer pays is many multiples higher than the manufacturing cost.
This is why these Chinese sellers have become so popular - although in some cases, yes they are cutting corners - the main reason why they can sell the products so much cheaper is because they cut out a number of middlemen.
The person who imports the product into Europe has to make a profit. The person who brings it from there into your country and distributes it has to make a profit. The retailer has to make a profit, on top of paying their staff and landlord. It all adds up.
I run a business in Vietnam, and it's often hard/prohibitively expensive to purchase recognizable brand name items so we end up purchasing lots of these unbranded/rebranded Chinese items. The quality varies wildly and there's no way to know ahead of time.
I would always recommend buying recognizable brands for anything critical. Otherwise it's basically a lottery. Quality control for brands, not to mention customer support, might feel like it leaves a lot to be desired. But it's still light years ahead of un/rebranded Chinese goods.
Since we have no choice, and the odds of coming out ok (if not exactly winning) in this lottery are not that bad, it's a workable situation. But because we have to replace things so often, I'd say we don't save much money - compared to western prices for the brands I mean. Compared to Vietnamese prices, we definitely save money. I'm not happy about the waste created, but at least we're in the country where everything goes to get recycled already.
On the other hand, there are also good quality Chinese brands (Dong Chen power tools, for example, or Timemore coffee equipment). But they're not that cheap.
In some product categories, it's all the same junk. I was researching dehumidifiers a few years ago and the consensus seemed to be that regardless of brand you can expect it to fail in 2-3 years because internally they all use the same cheap Chinese components. So why not buy an AFLUUHOO dehumidifier instead of a name brand one?
There are also markets where the markup on brand names is insane. For example: take a water pump, then brand it an "aquarium water pump", and suddenly you can charge 4x more for the same thing. Here even bad quality Chinese products win out because the cost is so much less (and it's not even certain that the quality is inferior since the brand names are also made in china).
Finally, I can't stress what a negative purchasing signal "smart"/IoT features are for me. Perhaps some people love having online accounts for their lightbulbs and waiting around for the manufacturer to brick their devices, but it's not my cup of tea. Chinese devices often either lack smart features or use Bluetooth + a very basic app with no logins required. Another win.
> and it's not even certain that the quality is inferior since the brand names are also made in china
Well, even from the same factory, different levels of quality control are done, and different materials are used. For example, the last few days I've been researching a cordless drill. It seems that Total/Ingco are Chinese brands made in the same factory (they just change the plastic color and logo), and it also seems highly likely that the factory also makes DeWalt. However, while the DeWalt drills look very similar, they're also visibly higher quality plastic, and when I found a comparison video of the three, the DeWalt was also more powerful, had additional features and was just clearly the better choice.
On the other hand, it's about three times more expensive and the consensuses seems to be that Total/Ingco are not terrible - probably fine for a homeowner who does occasional handiwork. Personally I went with a DongChen drill and using it for a few jobs I think I made a good choice. It's strong, feels heavy and solid.
However, I've also got a couple of small Total items like a current tester pen, and it's fine. Lasted a few years of occasional use so far.
This might be a controversial take, but here it goes: the vast majority of Chinese brands are really bad at marketing to Western audiences.
There are a few good ones, but they had to do what was necessary. For example, to increase the appeal of electric vehicles - they hired German industrial designers from European automakers.
The few ones that come to mind are Huawei, DJI, and arguably Xiaomi. Then, of course, you have niche companies with great products that market mainly through influencers, such as Bambulab. There are also plenty of niche products from Chinese brands with high quality.
But the vast majority are sloppy, lack "good taste" (which is subjective to culture), compete mainly on price, and from my understanding, they haven't developed their own identity - or at least popularized it in Western countries.
For example, Japanese companies' marketing, and even the marketing in Japan, has an appeal to Western audiences because of cultural exchanges (from products to media for many decades). It's unique and original to them, and Western audiences cherish it.
Managing a brand in Western countries is a totally different job than producing product and sending it out.
It's also hard to manage things in countries where you aren't.
The importers that find these goods, buy inventory, sell locally for a markup, and provide warranty service are providing a valuable function in the economy and have earned some markup.
Because they don't want to be held responsible. They don't want to do QA. They don't want good quality products. They don't want warranties. They don't want to take back their broken products. They rather slap on a new name and continue selling their crap when the old brand product is being banned in the EU
So what's the moat here? I can start a business and sell the same scooter for 1000euros and undercut everyone. I wonder what is preventing competition here from solving this issue organically
Shoes are another one. I picked up some Crocs knock-offs for about $10 a few years ago, and they're probably the best sandals I've ever had - still going strong. I suspect it's not even a 'knock-off' but simply people who run the manufacturing lines continuing to run the manufacturing lines after the official order is filled and shipped back to the West to be sold at lol markups.
Low quality Chinese plastics are known to contain heavy metals like lead or cadmium. I would never trust a random Chinese manufacturer that isn’t vetted by a much larger organization that I can actually sue for negligence, etc.
China themselves are doing a much better job on this front than some random lawsuit would. For instance the baby milk scandal from China [1] was globally publicized largely because it led to the death of 6 infants. China's prosecution of the company included complete dissolution of the company, 3 death penalties for the heads of the company, life imprisonment for middle men, and even prison terms for some wives who were not even involved in the business. Compare this against what happened to Bayer who knowingly sold HIV infected blood products, infecting tens of thousands with HIV and subsequently AIDS. [2]
There's a reason the "shocking" examples they give in this article are now things like "kids’ shorts with drawstrings longer than regulation length, which cause a trip hazard." China is an export economy and takes this stuff pretty seriously, which is why I also think articles like this are mostly about manufacturing consent for future actions. We gotta get ready for the next war - Ukraine and Israel are getting so boring!
A friend of mine scoffed that I would buy a remote controlled 12v relay for $4 from temu. He said I was risking burning my truck to the ground to save $30. He sent me a link to the Amazon one he bought.
So I sent him a link to the exact same one, on Temu, for $5.
Active electronics is one are you need to be the most careful. Pop that cheap relay open and look at the components - ten to one, they'll be completely potted in opaque material that hides the fact it's using an underrated thyristor. It'll work... as long as you don't push too much current through it. It might also catch fire.
You can't even trust what's printed on the ICs. Seriously, look into chip counterfeiting, it's a real problem.
That's why active components from Digikey and Mouser are so much more expensive than what you see on Amazon or eBay. They can trace the components back to the fab where they were made. You pay more, but you know you're getting what you ordered.
Relays are one thing that you notoriously can't trust what it looks like. Yes, the one your friend bought on Amazon was probably also junk, but you should definitely buy components like this from a reputable vendor unless their application is absolutely trivial.
Try returning the scooter once it breaks, if ordered from China.
The problem is that Chinese companies ignore EU laws , taking away customers rights. And local companies overcharging, but providing said rights or at least being held responsible, if they don't.
You have to click the buttons on the right to see your different options. Translating the page makes it a bit easier. The one in question is "style 17."
Manufacturing consent has a different meaning. Politicians are always going to argue for their case but that is not the same as how the media and business monopolies in the US have fried the US public on everything. The EU is of course going to start cracking down on imports of goods that do not follow EU law and the platforms that sell these products.
If popular goods disobey safety regulations, it was bound to catch authorities' attention at some point. But:
> they're just a middleman charging an unreasonable fee for importing Chinese-made products
Doesn't most of our economy feel like a scam?
It seems inevitable, when dominant economic frameworks treat consumption as something which must be endlessly stimulated (at ever-increasing prices), instead of stimulating production, forcing cutthroat competition in areas where there is currently little, and letting the unprofitable rent-seekers and parasites get flushed out.
Yeah, it’s an institutionalized scam that’s increasingly dysfunctional and absurd.
It’s only cutthroat capitalism for the less well off majority that make up an increasingly small part of the economy. By dollar value the economy is dominated by financialization and speculative asset bubbles.
This feels like a necessary evil when it is often cheaper to buy an entire Chinese product directly with free shipping than to pay for just the domestic shipping of anything at all. This is a market distortion which has a huge cost to the environment among other things.
On the other hand China is the manufacturing giant of the world, and being able to source components directly in small quantities at a reasonable price is probably very useful to small businesses, so I hope that can continue somehow.
Also, there is a limit. If buying locally means the product costs 10x as much and the shipping is another $15 on top, don't be surprised if I choose the option that doesn't cost me an arm and a leg, and don't expect me to vote for anyone who tries to make me pay 20x as much.
You’ll pay the price eventually. China can sweep the European market with products, underbidding every EU company. If they did that with no backlash, we’d see the local economy plunge, followed by wages, buying power, standard of living, and so on.
We need to fend this off, even if it means people will have to pay more for individual purchases, because the larger population does not understand macroscopic effects. China is a danger to the EU, and also the US (even though the US currently is mostly dangerous to itself).
> I gladly buy from local EU businesses, but not if they're just a middleman charging an unreasonable fee for importing Chinese-made products.
I bought LED string lights from a local company (Clas Ohlson in Sweden), and very similar looking lights from Temu.
Clas Ohlson: wires isolated from each other and running perfectly parallel to each other through the entire string. A nice power converter. Lights all identical, properly secured. Made in China.
Temu: wires nearly touching each other in multiple places. No power converter, you plug the thing directly into the power socket. Lights embedded every which way. Made in China.
Quite often those "unreasonable fees" are for quality control
China's been antagonized by every political forces in the West for as long as I can remember, this has nothing to do with "manufacturing consent". By now, it should be obvious that the European Union, the organization whose sole purpose is pushing the neoliberal agenda, has absolutely no will to restrict free trade with anyone.
The EU has no sole purpose, but the most important one is harmonising the inner-European market. It did so by introducing Schengen roaming, for example, which allows me to relocate into any other EU country right now, buy a house and found a company, without any restrictions or visa necessary. I can buy goods from anywhere in the EU without tariffs or clearing. I enjoy natural parks and arts, all funded by the EU. If I go on vacation in one of the newer, poorer EU countries, I don’t drive through slums, because they received subsidies by the other members to raise their standard of living. I could go on for a while, but my point is: the EU has brought a lot of positive change and it’s certainly not just pushing a neoliberal agenda. Even if you ignore all of this, how do you think the individual member states would fare if they had to compete against the lunatic in the White House or China alone? If we didn’t band together, we’d be completely impotent against the bigger world powers.
To be fair, neoliberalism was imprecise. I believe the correct term is ordoliberalism[1]. Still, the EU has little interest in matters of sovereignty.
I am simply trying to explain the otherwise baffling leniency toward very hostile actors like (current) America or China: because this goes directly against its core values, one of them being to always promote free trade. This is even stated as one of its "aim and value" in [2].
I am no Eurosceptic, I think we should just acknowledge and challenge the EU's current limitations if we want to move forward.
The US is gearing up for a China conflict, there is a split between the prep for war with China now or sort out Iran first and then prep for war with China. It’s currently most obvious in the MAGA split but the dems are captured as well. AOC is signaling she’ll play ball in what I assume is prep for a presidential run.
Like most voters I’m anti-war but people tend not to get what they vote for in important matters like that.
The US will not permit the EU to sit on the sidelines.
By 2027, the EU will be too busy fighting Russia to help much with China.
Meanwhile the US has far too little independent industrial manufacturing left. All of its super-expensive weapons systems need components and raw materials - especially rare earths - imported from China.
The US has a huge stockpile of weapons which are incredibly vulnerable to sneak drone attacks.
It has neither the talent, the resources, nor the industrial capacity to build replacements quickly at scale, never mind mass produce the drone swarm armies that will win the next war.
I'm not a huge fan of empires, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see China become the sole remaining superpower within ten years - before starting its own inevitable decay into corruption and psychopathy.
I have enough experience and knowledge to know what not to buy
What kind of experience do you mean here? Do you go by brand name, or specific clues in product images? Because I have a hard time trusting the product descriptions on these massive online marketplaces (Amazon included).
The EU should enforce much larger warranties than the current 2 years.
The higher the price, the longer the required warranty:
A 1500€ electric scooter should have, say, 7 years warranty. A car, 10 years - after that date, the battery interface becomes open source hardware for easy OEM replacement.
Results:
+ Sweatshops exploiting people in miserable conditions are no longer profitable
+ Protects the environment via resource utilization reduction
+ The EU can compete in manufacturing - via quality - with competitors that mostly offer cheap labor.
I generally like the idea of stronger warranties but it's not always reasonable to relate them to cost. For example batteries: they last for a specific number of uses, and it doesn't matter how expensive they are.
It would also stifle innovation. Foldable phones, or any new technology, always starts out expensive and less durable. There's no way they could give a longer warranty on a foldable phone than on a cheap normal phone. Note, I'm not really a fan of foldable phones but it's the best example I could think of right now. You can replace it with almost any new technology.
That's my question as well. If he's so concerned about this then what about other services? Polish Allegro quite recently had to add a filter on their site to sieve out all sellers from outside EEA because they flooded it.
Moreover, there are physical stores that also sell this "dangerous" stuff. My friend worked in one and she complained all the time on chemical odour these items were generating.
If the stuff is physically imported into EU by a company then the company is legally responsible for that (GPSR and in addition various national regulations), this article is about direct sales from outside of EU to EU consumers.
So every consumer will have to do a full toxicology study before they buy anything? Or electrical safety study. Or whatever. And because the same product can come from different sources (or may change from one day to the next), you will need to do this every time. And what if I get cancer anyway? Every consumer will have to sue some random person in China? Completely unworkable.
Just shop at higher end stores. If I want to gamble and search for an item I go to Temu. If I want good enough, I go to value based US retailers. If I want 'a bit better' I go the slightly more expensive ones known for curating their for sale items a bit. If I want quality, I go to a specialty shop and ask a sales representative for the desired quality.
There's no guarantee that something is better just because it's more expensive or has marketing that says that it's better. Specialist knowledge and quite a lot of time is required to properly evaluate a product. Consider that Amazon is full of questionable products. I have also seen non-UL-listed (or listed with anyone else) phone chargers in physical stores in the united states. You can't rely on reputation either in an age of enshittification.
A regulator can tell temu/shein/amazon/etc to take down the seller, or even the brand and the next day two new ones prop up selling the product from the same factory.
To my knowledge, no one has solved this yet. Maybe a good use of AI? Unfortunately not monetizable really.
> A regulator can tell temu/shein/amazon/etc to take down the seller, or even the brand and the next day two new ones prop up selling the product from the same factory.
If that game remains afoot for too long, the buck stops at the distributor - who can't hide from the EU behind ever-shifting randomly generated brands.
I don't disagree. The question is how they'd do it.
There's an interesting dilemma here you're not considering. Any more red tape here would make it extremely difficult for legitimate small businesses to sell anything online.
Simple solutions that you have just thought about usually don't work, especially when the topic seems like it might employ several researchers and lawmakers.
Is it a dilemma? If you sell goods that don’t meet safety regulations and cause damages you get fined and penalized punitively. If you sell fake stuff you get fined.
That there may be some regulatory capture where the fines don’t really matter, but we have a system in place to deal with fraud and unsafe poor products.
Ultimately, Amazon should inspect the factories of the providers, period. Both to check for child work and carcinogens.
If your business is to source from all 6-letter random “IOWURP Products”, then quality checks becomes your job. Unhappy? Then do like all other distributors: Only accept direct deliveries from Sony and Beats.
It’s trivial to solve. Make it so that the company that runs a store is liable for products sold in that store. Amazon will figure this out instantaneously if they’re actually responsible for damages. As long as they aren’t then they’ll continue to do nothing.
I buy some arts materials from China, but only simple things that I cannot find in EU or tyat are just the same product re-sold a lot more expensive here. I'd be glad to buy in EU if that's cheaper.
I still buy EU arts materials that are more expensive than Chinese products, but that are (at least supposedly) better tested for toxicity.
I noticed in the past year or two art stores like Casa Piera/Arte Miranda have had more products like watercolor paper and paints from China. I hope new regulations will make sure these are compliant with EY regulations, without raising the price to consumer too much.
The key thing is: Europe has product standards (and not just on safety), sometimes very strict ones. We have democratically agreed upon these, often enough only as a response to the industry being unable or unwilling (cough Apple and USB-C) to do the right thing on its own. In addition, we have warranty requirements (a minimum of two years), minimum wage and workplace safety regulations.
Now Temu, Shein, lots of the shops on Alibaba, Amazon and eBay... they all push stuff into Europe that violates these standards and can be sold cheaper as a result.
That is bad on three sides: First, for the dangerous stuff (such as the toys with choking hazards, lead paint or the "chinesium" Big Clive routinely pulls out of shady eBay sales), that's directly endangering our people and/or our environment. And second, all the stuff made and imported that violates requirements is undercutting our domestic production and economy who does have to follow the regulations or otherwise it gets fined. And finally: a lot of the stuff particularly on Temu and Shein is outright garbage, falling apart after a few uses - and then it ends in our landfills and waste disposals. A horrible waste from an environment perspective, especially given that a lot of the junk comes in via air freight of all things!
> unwilling (cough Apple and USB-C) to do the right thing on its own.
There was, and still is, no reason that Apple should have been forced to adopt USB-C with the proliferation of Lightning on the market - a connector with significantly more lifetime and reliability than USB-C. If you want a device with USB-C, go pick an Android device that ships with USB-C. Forcing these regulations has just forced everyone to sell the same amorphous brick of glass and sand under the guise of "consumer choice".
(And remember: It's okay when Google goes anti-competitive, but it's not okay when Apple does it! --Margrethe Vestager)
> they all push stuff into Europe that violates these standards and can be sold cheaper as a result.
I understand that and I agree that it should be regulated. But on the other hand, I can order 50 zippers on Temu for 2$, and if I go to a local store they sell one for 10$. I bought both, and they are exactly the same.
So one zipper on Temu costs 4 cents, versus 10$ in a local store. That's 250x more expensive. Doesn't seem reasonable.
Maybe the one in the local store wouldn’t need to be $10 if more people bought them there? Also, they need to charge for the risk of putting the crap on the shelf without testing it first.
Are you saying that the local merchant tests it and that's why they sell it at 250x the price?
I said 10$, but it depends on the length. So 60cm is maybe 10$, 70cm is 12$, 80cm is 13.50. So you would say that testing the 70cm variant of the zipper is worth 2$ more than testing the paint on the 60cm variant?
My point is that at this price, if I don't get the zipper on Temu, I don't get it at all. I won't pay 10$ for a zipper of this quality.
I've noticed a similar 'this profit margin seems almost vulgar' on the same store shelf.
As you showed with slightly longer zippers.. I notice with car fob remote batteries. An 8 pack is $12 at the store. The same brand, a single will be $5. A 2pack is $7. And the 8pack $12.
Do you really need to make $4 on selling me a single? I know shelf space is valuable, but the same store sells things for $1 too on another shelf so apparently <$1 profit shelf space is possible.
Given how small the batteries are, they probably have similar costs for shipping and handling. So there's a cost to get _anything_ to the local store, plus the cost of the actual goods.
They are not. With the one you buy at your local store, you get the two years warranty, and should the thing contain, say, lead paint you can hold the seller accountable.
Good luck doing the same against Temu.
In addition, you pay a markup at the physical store for stockkeeping. Yeah sure, I can order the small capacitor for some fried PLC adapter on Amazon. No doubt. But I'll need to wait about two days for shipping, whereas the local electronics store has it right now when I need it.
> They are not. With the one you buy at your local store, you get the two years warranty
And with the Temu one I get 250 units for the same price. I don't know how often you break a zipper, but 250x in two years sounds like a lot :-).
> should the thing contain, say, lead paint you can hold the seller accountable.
I understand what you are saying, but honestly I doubt they check every 10cm of every zipper for traces of lead (or other). If there is ever an issue, maybe (?) they will recall them somehow, but I probably won't ever know (say I paid cash, they don't have a way to contact me at all, and with a credit card I'm not sure if they can / will find my contact ever).
> But I'll need to wait about two days for shipping, whereas the local electronics store has it right now when I need it.
Sure! But the fact is that I'm absolutely fine waiting 2 days if it costs me 250x less. Actually with Temu it's more a few weeks, I would think? Still worth it for zippers.
If the zipper was sold for 1$ in the local store, that would be different. But 10$? At this point I just don't want the zipper at all. So in a way it's not really "Temu vs local store". If I don't get it on Temu, I don't get it at all.
If you leave your personal gain aside for one moment, don’t you see how that just means you’ll throw 246 of them away because you don’t need them, minus the three replacements for the bad quality? Don’t you see how that cannot be positive, to have so much waste, instead of proper QA and manufacturers doing the right thing for fear of litigation? These manufacturers pay taxes and employ people. Both of these contribute to our wealth. Making it harder for local businesses to sustain themselves will lower or quality of life. This may not relate to your zippers immediately, but allowing vendors like Temu to exploit our economy by undercutting it has negative effects, which you are supporting with your actions.
> If you leave your personal gain aside for one moment, don’t you see how that just means you’ll throw 246 of them away because you don’t need them
I didn't say I would get 250 of them, I said the price was 250x more expensive in the local store.
> These manufacturers pay taxes and employ people.
Would you buy a coke for 55$ if I told you "look, these manufacturers pay taxes and employ people"? Or do you have a notion of "this is too expensive for what it is"?
> This may not relate to your zippers immediately, but allowing vendors like Temu to exploit our economy by undercutting it has negative effects, which you are supporting with your actions.
Just like you didn't read properly that I was not actually ordering 250 zippers, you didn't read my first message properly. Let me write it again slightly differently:
I do agree that it needs to be regulated. But on the other hand, sometimes it seems so extreme that it's difficult to believe that the local store is not abusing. At this price, I just can't afford the zipper.
Here in Spain from time to time (near Christmas) often they fine some warehouses/companies sending cheap toys to dollar stores with no safety regulation and often with toxic paints. No, they aren't the same. And if some of the stuff from our 'dollar stores' are slightly dangerous, some stuff from Temu or Shein (hello plastic clothes) can be midly dingerous over time.
You can have similar crap on AliExpress but the quality at AE it's far better for electronics at least.
As I mentioned from the beginning on: I do agree that it needs to be regulated, and I do agree that some QA is needed.
However, I find it hard to believe that because of that QA, a 0.04$ zipper now costs 10$. And the fact that the 60cm zipper costs 10$ and the 70cm one costs 12$ tells me that the local stores (or whatever intermediate responsible for the price) are simply abusing.
In other words, it feels like there is a responsibility on the side of the local stores: I want a zipper, I can't afford 10$ for one, so either I don't get a zipper at all, or I get it on Temu. In any case, the local merchant is screwed. Now if I get a zipper on Temu, suddenly I see all the cheap crap I can order from there, and I presume my local merchant abuse on their price in exactly the same way (which may or may not be right). So the local merchant "pushed me" towards Temu with their abusive prices.
>With the one you buy at your local store, you get the two years warranty, and should the thing contain, say, lead paint you can hold the seller accountable.
I'm not sure how it works in the EU, but here in the USA I'd guess that the vast majority of those zippers are just ordered from Temu and marked up. And good luck holding the "seller accountable" if the zipper doesn't end up meeting your standards.
Just to be clear those things you buy on Temu must have by law a representative in the EU which would be the entity responsible if you are poisoned by whatever you buy.
Also: fuck local merchants. They have scammed us for a lifetime. They can all close for all I care.
> Just to be clear those things you buy on Temu must have by law a representative in the EU which would be the entity responsible if you are poisoned by whatever you buy.
Yup, the "EC Representative". Some LLC paper company that's probably going to just fold over when you hit them with a claim.
I don’t know much about the legal code. But when my computer code doesn’t work I don’t think of fixing it in terms of “add more code or don’t,” but rather “remove the bad code (if necessary) and add some good code (if necessary).”
By taking a look you'll find that regulations are commonly written by civil servants and various experts (which are typically not chosen by a vote) and then approved by people that you do get to choose by a vote.
We vote on the representatives, who in turn spend an awful lot of time talking to all sorts of interest groups - manufacturers, other parts of the economic chain, consumer and environmental protection organizations, lawyers, industry organizations, god knows what else - and in the end usually come up with decent regulations as a result.
I agree that the results can be sometimes weird, sometimes annoying, and sometimes outright dumb. But I'll rather pay that price than not have USB-C, two year product warranties, no lead in kids' toys or access to clean and safe drinking water.
I may be a bit jaded here, but: $politician is shocked by $problemKnownForDecades. These people's outside face is more an opera actor than a real person. So the actual message is probably: Some political faction has decided to push for legislation and needs to sell it to the public.
Combined with the USA's preparation for war on China, the Russia invasion in Ukraine, and the Trump trade war: It seems the EU is aligning itself with the USA againts China, and has to sell this to an anti-Trump citizenship
> Some political faction has decided to push for legislation and needs to sell it to the public.
Yes. Chinese direct sales have no taxes (as they divide orders to below the taxable amount). So, taxes are coming to Chinese goods and this is the start of that process. It makes sense to remove that loophole that gives advantage to foreign made products over local ones. So, the goal seems a good one.
I'm not a friend of EU regulators in general, but complaining about Chinese imports is an easy PR-win. If a country can compe up with something like "Gutter Oil" being a thing, procured by mom-and-pops, sold to restaurants nearby, which then shove it down the throats of their customers nearby, there must be such little accountability and remorse from the producer side in general in the PRC that putting more distance between vendors and customers can only result in more toxins. Europeans have no idea about the brazenness there.
Is there a reason why the toxic chemicals, choking hazards or lack of UV filter on sunglasses are intentionally ignored? Also, could there perhaps be a reason for the length being regulated or do you think they just do that cause they got nothing better to do? Maybe the article even mentions the reason in the same sentence.
Some things have gotten better, some things have gotten worse... much worse.
Incidentally, dental floss is also affected by this stupid regulation treadmill. The new PFAS-free stuff is absolute shit. Maybe it's less harmful in some way according to the politicised "studies", but I just don't give a fuck anymore when all they're doing is making our quality of life worse.
Fair, fair. I'm over-accustomed to markets where standards and expectations are tilted far in the "caveat emptor" direction—where people are still working on big things like "don't use poison to make your turmeric look yellower."
I think what made me react (with fondness, not criticism, to be clear) was the framing: casually noting the departure from the technical standard specifically regulating "hole diameter adequate for sufficient airflow upon accidental swallowing in baby-facing bead-related amusement products" or what have you.
Not only have they thought about that very specific aspect of a choking hazard, but they've figured out what the right parameters are, published them, and hold manufacturers to them—and that specific dimension of the problem is common enough knowledge that a Guardian journalist just tosses it off casually for a general audience.
Additionally it's probably a rule that was written in blood and it also isn't an obvious feature that someone would know about and base their purchase decision on.
I'm fairly certain just about every single half decent parent is completely obsessed with anything that might even possibly be a choking hazard. Kids are surprisingly strong and capable of completely chimping things to shreds. If there's choking zone beads on a toy, it's not getting bought, regardless of whether or not if they have 'ventilation holes' in them.
No, it's so much worse than anyone could have imagined. For example: "kids’ shorts with drawstrings longer than regulation length, which cause a trip hazard."
The EU has this pathetic protectionist attitude. They are sore losers when it comes to manufacturing, energy and IT. With IT they are trying to bully these US companies all the time. With energy we've overregulated nuclear and are importing natural gas en masse, all while proclaiming to be green.
Instead of getting angry that other countries can do things better, we should focus on getting better ourselves! Get our energy, manufacturing and IT sorted out! This is pathetic.
> With IT they are trying to bully these US companies all the time.
Correct me if I got this wrong but aren’t the US States with the strongest (and incidentally most EU like) data privacy regulations the very States where said US companies have most of their operations? Why is that, is California trying to bully Californian enterprise?
"(...) kids’ shorts with drawstrings longer than regulation length (...)"
We really overrregulate things here in the EU. It was a great run, we've had access to great Chinese stuff for a while now. Maybe around 2007-ish the direct-to-consumer imports started.
It has really helped me to acquire tools and eletrical components cheaply, where no other supplier was able to offer it at a good price or at all. Hopefuly the EU will fail to keep this in check so that the party can continue.
That quote does continue with "which cause a trip hazard".
I have no idea what the trip hazard on that is, or how many children tripped on these types of strings. Do you? It seems to me that any opinion without this information is not an informed opinion.
Additionally, pretty much all of the other examples seem far more serious. Quoting only that one bit is not a fair representation of the article on that account either.
Additionally additionally, some corporations not following the regulations is just unfair competition. Not hard to be cheaper than everyone else if you decide to dump slop with toxic chemicals. That some of the regulations might be bad is somewhat besides the point here. There is a democratic process for changing them if you don't like them.
We all want safe products. Regulating products is a bit like the war on drugs. Drugs are bad, so you criminalize it. Seems logical, right? In reality, we have many case studies where this has actually worsened the situation, as it pushes the drugs into the underworld. This is how regulation can be counter-intuitive.
I'm so cynical and passionate about this overregulation because I've had to deal with it myself in aviation and medical. When you read the regulations, everything makes sense. It basically says: "reduce risk". In reality, companies spend (in my experience) insane amounts of resources on paperwork to prove they are safe, which is completely detached from reality. It's a paper excercise. It's bureaucratic bloat that slipped in over the years. It seems to make sense at the surface, but actually is counterproductive.
Why? Any sane business wants to minimize risks at all costs. Those who don't, will at best get a terrible reputation. There should be regulation of course, just no overregulation. It's like bloated code. There should be code of couse, just no needless abstractions as it just drags everything down.
It's just that I'm seeing a pattern where we are cynical towards other countries and are simply too self-congratulating with our own regulatory situation. As a continent/union we're showing signs being a bad sport. Instead of saying how bad everybody else is, why not make good stuff ourselves instead?
We can't compete because our energy is insanely expensive. Zoning and compliance get in the way of business. Lack of raw resource acquisition (we have to import raw materials). High taxes. Labour shortages, overly strong unions. All the ugly things we'd rather not talk about, the "boring" problems that have to be adresses one by one. We're inefficient and cannot compete on many things globally and have to rely on imports. That inefficiency needs to be adressed!
You have not actually answered the question. So still an uninformed opinion and you don't know if this is "over-regulation" or not if you don't know the facts. You can write endless paragraphs of ideology and cynicism to justify your uninformed opinion, but that does not change it's an uninformed opinion, and can be dismissed as such.
I would buy a Chinese Thinkpad-like clone netbook with no issues from AliExpress, some of them are pretty neat. But I'd run away from a 99% of stuff sold at Temu and Shein.
I'm glad for any initiative that leads to less crap reaching the markets that is either dangerous or has a shelf life of a few months before breaking down. The EU as a whole will become even less competitive if we don't re-gain some level of quality awareness and place quality at the center of the things we consume and produce.
This should not be understood as anti-China but should apply to all products on the EU market. China has some well-respected quality-conscious consumer brands (e.g. Hifiman, Fenix Lights, DJI, Anker, Govee...) but it seems a lot of smaller companies there put easy revenue over any concerns for quality.
I want to emphasise your latter point - I have a Lenovo work laptop, Fenix head torches and various other high quality Chinese products. Any company selling into the EU needs to meet the QC and regulatory requirements, and many well known Chinese brands already do so, and so their products naturally sell at a premium to the cheapest options. A little more thought in purchasing by buyers would go a long way in helping the commissions efforts to reduce harmful goods.
I've noticed that there's currently some kind of manufacturing consent going on in the EU, presumably preparing the population for, which I claim, plans to make it very difficult for European consumers to order from China directly.
Disclaimer: I gladly buy from local EU businesses, but not if they're just a middleman charging an unreasonable fee for importing Chinese-made products.
I saw an electronic scooter in a shop here in Slovenia, but the name of the brand was unknown to me, and the price was quite high. (1500 EUR!)
I searched the brand on the internet, but nothing turned up. Just Slovenian shops selling that same model at a similar price. [1] This seemed strange to me.
So then I screenshot one of those pages and search via image. Turns out that you can buy the exact same scooter on TaoBao for 952 RMB. (~114 EUR.) [2]
This is an absolutely ordinary situation. It was much the same when I was purchasing a bike for my kid -- 300 EUR here vs. 250 RMB there, for exactly the same bike. The purchasing power gap between USD|EUR and RMB is immense.
(I try not to talk about it too much, because it's the sort of thing that really upsets politicians and local vendors, and they'll want to find a way to make it more painful. It's a secret "life-hack" but for real.)
[1] - https://www.telekom.si/e-trgovina/sport-in-prosti-cas/skiroj...
[2] - https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?abbucket=5&id=869342176534
This is the same for almost all electronics. If you buy a toaster, how much do you think it really costs to manufacture the €20 no name brand vs the €80 Delonghi branded one? In both cases, the price the customer pays is many multiples higher than the manufacturing cost.
This is why these Chinese sellers have become so popular - although in some cases, yes they are cutting corners - the main reason why they can sell the products so much cheaper is because they cut out a number of middlemen.
The person who imports the product into Europe has to make a profit. The person who brings it from there into your country and distributes it has to make a profit. The retailer has to make a profit, on top of paying their staff and landlord. It all adds up.
I run a business in Vietnam, and it's often hard/prohibitively expensive to purchase recognizable brand name items so we end up purchasing lots of these unbranded/rebranded Chinese items. The quality varies wildly and there's no way to know ahead of time.
I would always recommend buying recognizable brands for anything critical. Otherwise it's basically a lottery. Quality control for brands, not to mention customer support, might feel like it leaves a lot to be desired. But it's still light years ahead of un/rebranded Chinese goods.
Since we have no choice, and the odds of coming out ok (if not exactly winning) in this lottery are not that bad, it's a workable situation. But because we have to replace things so often, I'd say we don't save much money - compared to western prices for the brands I mean. Compared to Vietnamese prices, we definitely save money. I'm not happy about the waste created, but at least we're in the country where everything goes to get recycled already.
On the other hand, there are also good quality Chinese brands (Dong Chen power tools, for example, or Timemore coffee equipment). But they're not that cheap.
In some product categories, it's all the same junk. I was researching dehumidifiers a few years ago and the consensus seemed to be that regardless of brand you can expect it to fail in 2-3 years because internally they all use the same cheap Chinese components. So why not buy an AFLUUHOO dehumidifier instead of a name brand one?
There are also markets where the markup on brand names is insane. For example: take a water pump, then brand it an "aquarium water pump", and suddenly you can charge 4x more for the same thing. Here even bad quality Chinese products win out because the cost is so much less (and it's not even certain that the quality is inferior since the brand names are also made in china).
Finally, I can't stress what a negative purchasing signal "smart"/IoT features are for me. Perhaps some people love having online accounts for their lightbulbs and waiting around for the manufacturer to brick their devices, but it's not my cup of tea. Chinese devices often either lack smart features or use Bluetooth + a very basic app with no logins required. Another win.
> and it's not even certain that the quality is inferior since the brand names are also made in china
Well, even from the same factory, different levels of quality control are done, and different materials are used. For example, the last few days I've been researching a cordless drill. It seems that Total/Ingco are Chinese brands made in the same factory (they just change the plastic color and logo), and it also seems highly likely that the factory also makes DeWalt. However, while the DeWalt drills look very similar, they're also visibly higher quality plastic, and when I found a comparison video of the three, the DeWalt was also more powerful, had additional features and was just clearly the better choice.
On the other hand, it's about three times more expensive and the consensuses seems to be that Total/Ingco are not terrible - probably fine for a homeowner who does occasional handiwork. Personally I went with a DongChen drill and using it for a few jobs I think I made a good choice. It's strong, feels heavy and solid.
However, I've also got a couple of small Total items like a current tester pen, and it's fine. Lasted a few years of occasional use so far.
The real question is why Chinese companies aren't investing in brand development in Western countries.
This might be a controversial take, but here it goes: the vast majority of Chinese brands are really bad at marketing to Western audiences.
There are a few good ones, but they had to do what was necessary. For example, to increase the appeal of electric vehicles - they hired German industrial designers from European automakers.
The few ones that come to mind are Huawei, DJI, and arguably Xiaomi. Then, of course, you have niche companies with great products that market mainly through influencers, such as Bambulab. There are also plenty of niche products from Chinese brands with high quality.
But the vast majority are sloppy, lack "good taste" (which is subjective to culture), compete mainly on price, and from my understanding, they haven't developed their own identity - or at least popularized it in Western countries.
For example, Japanese companies' marketing, and even the marketing in Japan, has an appeal to Western audiences because of cultural exchanges (from products to media for many decades). It's unique and original to them, and Western audiences cherish it.
There's loads. Anker, Lenovo, BYD, Timemore, Xiaomi, TCL, HiSense, Haier, Huawei, TikTok.
Managing a brand in Western countries is a totally different job than producing product and sending it out.
It's also hard to manage things in countries where you aren't.
The importers that find these goods, buy inventory, sell locally for a markup, and provide warranty service are providing a valuable function in the economy and have earned some markup.
We have our products knocked off in China… we did work to shut them down, but another just pops up with a different name.
They weren’t developing brand because they weren’t developing products.
Because they don't want to be held responsible. They don't want to do QA. They don't want good quality products. They don't want warranties. They don't want to take back their broken products. They rather slap on a new name and continue selling their crap when the old brand product is being banned in the EU
So what's the moat here? I can start a business and sell the same scooter for 1000euros and undercut everyone. I wonder what is preventing competition here from solving this issue organically
I think it's a numbers game. Sell random popular product X at a huge margin, and you'll get some people that don't shop around that will buy it.
Will you be the next bezos? No. Will you make a living with little effort and little smarts? Probably.
That’s where tariffs and VAT, and some warranty legislation comes into play
Shoes are another one. I picked up some Crocs knock-offs for about $10 a few years ago, and they're probably the best sandals I've ever had - still going strong. I suspect it's not even a 'knock-off' but simply people who run the manufacturing lines continuing to run the manufacturing lines after the official order is filled and shipped back to the West to be sold at lol markups.
Low quality Chinese plastics are known to contain heavy metals like lead or cadmium. I would never trust a random Chinese manufacturer that isn’t vetted by a much larger organization that I can actually sue for negligence, etc.
China themselves are doing a much better job on this front than some random lawsuit would. For instance the baby milk scandal from China [1] was globally publicized largely because it led to the death of 6 infants. China's prosecution of the company included complete dissolution of the company, 3 death penalties for the heads of the company, life imprisonment for middle men, and even prison terms for some wives who were not even involved in the business. Compare this against what happened to Bayer who knowingly sold HIV infected blood products, infecting tens of thousands with HIV and subsequently AIDS. [2]
There's a reason the "shocking" examples they give in this article are now things like "kids’ shorts with drawstrings longer than regulation length, which cause a trip hazard." China is an export economy and takes this stuff pretty seriously, which is why I also think articles like this are mostly about manufacturing consent for future actions. We gotta get ready for the next war - Ukraine and Israel are getting so boring!
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
[2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood...
Yip: the under-appreciated "4th-shift".
Same materials, same machinery, same workers, same packaging. Different factory exit.
A friend of mine scoffed that I would buy a remote controlled 12v relay for $4 from temu. He said I was risking burning my truck to the ground to save $30. He sent me a link to the Amazon one he bought. So I sent him a link to the exact same one, on Temu, for $5.
Rossmann has made all kinds of videos about this. Be careful out there.
https://youtu.be/B90_SNNbcoU
Err, 32 volts putting 64 watts into a dummy load just to get 2A to test a fuse? For a second I was wondering if I was watching electroboom.
Active electronics is one are you need to be the most careful. Pop that cheap relay open and look at the components - ten to one, they'll be completely potted in opaque material that hides the fact it's using an underrated thyristor. It'll work... as long as you don't push too much current through it. It might also catch fire.
You can't even trust what's printed on the ICs. Seriously, look into chip counterfeiting, it's a real problem.
That's why active components from Digikey and Mouser are so much more expensive than what you see on Amazon or eBay. They can trace the components back to the fab where they were made. You pay more, but you know you're getting what you ordered.
It could be visually the same product but actually have different safety implementations
Relays are one thing that you notoriously can't trust what it looks like. Yes, the one your friend bought on Amazon was probably also junk, but you should definitely buy components like this from a reputable vendor unless their application is absolutely trivial.
Try returning the scooter once it breaks, if ordered from China.
The problem is that Chinese companies ignore EU laws , taking away customers rights. And local companies overcharging, but providing said rights or at least being held responsible, if they don't.
Both ends of an extreme. It's terrible.
>Turns out that you can buy the exact same scooter on TaoBao for 952 RMB. (~114 EUR.)
Did they change the Taobao listing? The price is lower still and the scooter is not at all similar.
You have to click the buttons on the right to see your different options. Translating the page makes it a bit easier. The one in question is "style 17."
Manufacturing consent has a different meaning. Politicians are always going to argue for their case but that is not the same as how the media and business monopolies in the US have fried the US public on everything. The EU is of course going to start cracking down on imports of goods that do not follow EU law and the platforms that sell these products.
If popular goods disobey safety regulations, it was bound to catch authorities' attention at some point. But:
> they're just a middleman charging an unreasonable fee for importing Chinese-made products
Doesn't most of our economy feel like a scam?
It seems inevitable, when dominant economic frameworks treat consumption as something which must be endlessly stimulated (at ever-increasing prices), instead of stimulating production, forcing cutthroat competition in areas where there is currently little, and letting the unprofitable rent-seekers and parasites get flushed out.
> Doesn't most of our economy feel like a scam?
Yeah, it’s an institutionalized scam that’s increasingly dysfunctional and absurd.
It’s only cutthroat capitalism for the less well off majority that make up an increasingly small part of the economy. By dollar value the economy is dominated by financialization and speculative asset bubbles.
This feels like a necessary evil when it is often cheaper to buy an entire Chinese product directly with free shipping than to pay for just the domestic shipping of anything at all. This is a market distortion which has a huge cost to the environment among other things.
On the other hand China is the manufacturing giant of the world, and being able to source components directly in small quantities at a reasonable price is probably very useful to small businesses, so I hope that can continue somehow.
Also, there is a limit. If buying locally means the product costs 10x as much and the shipping is another $15 on top, don't be surprised if I choose the option that doesn't cost me an arm and a leg, and don't expect me to vote for anyone who tries to make me pay 20x as much.
You’ll pay the price eventually. China can sweep the European market with products, underbidding every EU company. If they did that with no backlash, we’d see the local economy plunge, followed by wages, buying power, standard of living, and so on.
We need to fend this off, even if it means people will have to pay more for individual purchases, because the larger population does not understand macroscopic effects. China is a danger to the EU, and also the US (even though the US currently is mostly dangerous to itself).
This is the European Commission, which you don’t get to vote for. You don’t really have a choice.
Thank you for the info, random new account that pops up on every single thread about the EU to make comments about how terrible the EU is.
> I gladly buy from local EU businesses, but not if they're just a middleman charging an unreasonable fee for importing Chinese-made products.
I bought LED string lights from a local company (Clas Ohlson in Sweden), and very similar looking lights from Temu.
Clas Ohlson: wires isolated from each other and running perfectly parallel to each other through the entire string. A nice power converter. Lights all identical, properly secured. Made in China.
Temu: wires nearly touching each other in multiple places. No power converter, you plug the thing directly into the power socket. Lights embedded every which way. Made in China.
Quite often those "unreasonable fees" are for quality control
It always worked like that except this time they had to do it on a short notice. Kinda hard to keep discrete.
China's been antagonized by every political forces in the West for as long as I can remember, this has nothing to do with "manufacturing consent". By now, it should be obvious that the European Union, the organization whose sole purpose is pushing the neoliberal agenda, has absolutely no will to restrict free trade with anyone.
The EU has no sole purpose, but the most important one is harmonising the inner-European market. It did so by introducing Schengen roaming, for example, which allows me to relocate into any other EU country right now, buy a house and found a company, without any restrictions or visa necessary. I can buy goods from anywhere in the EU without tariffs or clearing. I enjoy natural parks and arts, all funded by the EU. If I go on vacation in one of the newer, poorer EU countries, I don’t drive through slums, because they received subsidies by the other members to raise their standard of living. I could go on for a while, but my point is: the EU has brought a lot of positive change and it’s certainly not just pushing a neoliberal agenda. Even if you ignore all of this, how do you think the individual member states would fare if they had to compete against the lunatic in the White House or China alone? If we didn’t band together, we’d be completely impotent against the bigger world powers.
To be fair, neoliberalism was imprecise. I believe the correct term is ordoliberalism[1]. Still, the EU has little interest in matters of sovereignty.
I am simply trying to explain the otherwise baffling leniency toward very hostile actors like (current) America or China: because this goes directly against its core values, one of them being to always promote free trade. This is even stated as one of its "aim and value" in [2].
I am no Eurosceptic, I think we should just acknowledge and challenge the EU's current limitations if we want to move forward.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordoliberalism
[2] https://european-union.europa.eu/principles-countries-histor...
i d be surprised if this wasn't some "influence" coming from the US administration
for my part i am ordering lots of trinkets that i might need, assuming that Temu will be banned soon
The EU and US have historically been very much opposites, and now increasingly more so, when it comes to things like this.
The US is gearing up for a China conflict, there is a split between the prep for war with China now or sort out Iran first and then prep for war with China. It’s currently most obvious in the MAGA split but the dems are captured as well. AOC is signaling she’ll play ball in what I assume is prep for a presidential run.
Like most voters I’m anti-war but people tend not to get what they vote for in important matters like that.
The US will not permit the EU to sit on the sidelines.
By 2027, the EU will be too busy fighting Russia to help much with China.
Meanwhile the US has far too little independent industrial manufacturing left. All of its super-expensive weapons systems need components and raw materials - especially rare earths - imported from China.
The US has a huge stockpile of weapons which are incredibly vulnerable to sneak drone attacks.
It has neither the talent, the resources, nor the industrial capacity to build replacements quickly at scale, never mind mass produce the drone swarm armies that will win the next war.
I'm not a huge fan of empires, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see China become the sole remaining superpower within ten years - before starting its own inevitable decay into corruption and psychopathy.
He should really take a look at the crap available on Amazon - much of which is just people reselling Chinese imports.
I personally buy a lot of electronics from AliExpress. But I have enough experience and knowledge to know what not to buy.
Some of the electronics available are downright dangerous - particularly super cheap USB chargers.
We have regulations and standards for a reason.
I have enough experience and knowledge to know what not to buy
What kind of experience do you mean here? Do you go by brand name, or specific clues in product images? Because I have a hard time trusting the product descriptions on these massive online marketplaces (Amazon included).
I’ve got a background in electronics.
Tear downs on YouTube are invaluable.
Unless I’m explicitly buying something to take it apart I avoid anything mains powered.
You can replace the plugs and cables with compliant ones. And you can fix the lack of proper earthing. But who knows what other problems there are.
For household items, I do tend to stick to known brands and would probably avoid places like Amazon.
In the U.K. we have various high street shops such as John Lewis that do have reputations to maintain.
I would also avoid anything that has large lithium batteries.
Some basic heuristics can go a long way. Does a £2 USB-C charger that claims to do 200W make sense? Probably not…
A try at a Solution:
The EU should enforce much larger warranties than the current 2 years.
The higher the price, the longer the required warranty:
A 1500€ electric scooter should have, say, 7 years warranty. A car, 10 years - after that date, the battery interface becomes open source hardware for easy OEM replacement.
Results:
+ Sweatshops exploiting people in miserable conditions are no longer profitable
+ Protects the environment via resource utilization reduction
+ The EU can compete in manufacturing - via quality - with competitors that mostly offer cheap labor.
I generally like the idea of stronger warranties but it's not always reasonable to relate them to cost. For example batteries: they last for a specific number of uses, and it doesn't matter how expensive they are.
It would also stifle innovation. Foldable phones, or any new technology, always starts out expensive and less durable. There's no way they could give a longer warranty on a foldable phone than on a cheap normal phone. Note, I'm not really a fan of foldable phones but it's the best example I could think of right now. You can replace it with almost any new technology.
what about garbage from amazon, aliexpres and others?
That's my question as well. If he's so concerned about this then what about other services? Polish Allegro quite recently had to add a filter on their site to sieve out all sellers from outside EEA because they flooded it.
Moreover, there are physical stores that also sell this "dangerous" stuff. My friend worked in one and she complained all the time on chemical odour these items were generating.
If the stuff is physically imported into EU by a company then the company is legally responsible for that (GPSR and in addition various national regulations), this article is about direct sales from outside of EU to EU consumers.
Then your friend is free to not buy these goods she deems "dangerous".
Why stop those of us who want to buy it?
So every consumer will have to do a full toxicology study before they buy anything? Or electrical safety study. Or whatever. And because the same product can come from different sources (or may change from one day to the next), you will need to do this every time. And what if I get cancer anyway? Every consumer will have to sue some random person in China? Completely unworkable.
Because I want to be able to just buy stuff, not have to spend hours researching whether some trinket is going to poison me.
I’d be ok with dangerous products being available for purchase if they’re labeled as such.
Shop somewhere else, nobody is forcing you to shop directly from China.
Just shop at higher end stores. If I want to gamble and search for an item I go to Temu. If I want good enough, I go to value based US retailers. If I want 'a bit better' I go the slightly more expensive ones known for curating their for sale items a bit. If I want quality, I go to a specialty shop and ask a sales representative for the desired quality.
There's no guarantee that something is better just because it's more expensive or has marketing that says that it's better. Specialist knowledge and quite a lot of time is required to properly evaluate a product. Consider that Amazon is full of questionable products. I have also seen non-UL-listed (or listed with anyone else) phone chargers in physical stores in the united states. You can't rely on reputation either in an age of enshittification.
TEMU is on another level of shitines compared to aliexpress
The issue is the complete lack of enforceability.
A regulator can tell temu/shein/amazon/etc to take down the seller, or even the brand and the next day two new ones prop up selling the product from the same factory.
To my knowledge, no one has solved this yet. Maybe a good use of AI? Unfortunately not monetizable really.
> A regulator can tell temu/shein/amazon/etc to take down the seller, or even the brand and the next day two new ones prop up selling the product from the same factory.
If that game remains afoot for too long, the buck stops at the distributor - who can't hide from the EU behind ever-shifting randomly generated brands.
I don't disagree. The question is how they'd do it.
There's an interesting dilemma here you're not considering. Any more red tape here would make it extremely difficult for legitimate small businesses to sell anything online.
Simple solutions that you have just thought about usually don't work, especially when the topic seems like it might employ several researchers and lawmakers.
Is it a dilemma? If you sell goods that don’t meet safety regulations and cause damages you get fined and penalized punitively. If you sell fake stuff you get fined.
That there may be some regulatory capture where the fines don’t really matter, but we have a system in place to deal with fraud and unsafe poor products.
Ultimately, Amazon should inspect the factories of the providers, period. Both to check for child work and carcinogens.
If your business is to source from all 6-letter random “IOWURP Products”, then quality checks becomes your job. Unhappy? Then do like all other distributors: Only accept direct deliveries from Sony and Beats.
temu just ships in a plain bag/box and customs would have to open ever package to know what is in it. They rarely have enough people for that.
If they want, they have enough people to do it: They can assign a single person and hold the packages until reviewed.
Once the hold time reaches a year, the single person will be enough to handle the orders that still remain...
They might have to say anything from Temu is banned. No need to open the box, just check the shipper.
And you've just created a nice rich industry of 're-shippers.' Though come to think of it, that's already essentially what drop shipping is.
That’s when customs blocks small shipments, or as they recently did, start charging tariffs on everything - no more de minimis.
Then it only makes sense to do larger shipments to distributors, and those are easier to track and intercept.
But it’s not like the war on drugs every succeeded, and that never had to worry about economic viability.
It’s trivial to solve. Make it so that the company that runs a store is liable for products sold in that store. Amazon will figure this out instantaneously if they’re actually responsible for damages. As long as they aren’t then they’ll continue to do nothing.
Amazon is already liable for products that are 'fulfilled by Amazon'. It has not stopped this even a little bit.
Are they? I thought they'd managed to push off liability onto the seller.
"[..] next day two new ones prop up selling the product from the same factory."
So you mean basically like Amazon?
They literally mention Amazon in their comment
Yes, thanks, I should read better.
I buy some arts materials from China, but only simple things that I cannot find in EU or tyat are just the same product re-sold a lot more expensive here. I'd be glad to buy in EU if that's cheaper.
I still buy EU arts materials that are more expensive than Chinese products, but that are (at least supposedly) better tested for toxicity.
I noticed in the past year or two art stores like Casa Piera/Arte Miranda have had more products like watercolor paper and paints from China. I hope new regulations will make sure these are compliant with EY regulations, without raising the price to consumer too much.
tbh not surprised, shien and temu got shady s** going on
The key thing is: Europe has product standards (and not just on safety), sometimes very strict ones. We have democratically agreed upon these, often enough only as a response to the industry being unable or unwilling (cough Apple and USB-C) to do the right thing on its own. In addition, we have warranty requirements (a minimum of two years), minimum wage and workplace safety regulations.
Now Temu, Shein, lots of the shops on Alibaba, Amazon and eBay... they all push stuff into Europe that violates these standards and can be sold cheaper as a result.
That is bad on three sides: First, for the dangerous stuff (such as the toys with choking hazards, lead paint or the "chinesium" Big Clive routinely pulls out of shady eBay sales), that's directly endangering our people and/or our environment. And second, all the stuff made and imported that violates requirements is undercutting our domestic production and economy who does have to follow the regulations or otherwise it gets fined. And finally: a lot of the stuff particularly on Temu and Shein is outright garbage, falling apart after a few uses - and then it ends in our landfills and waste disposals. A horrible waste from an environment perspective, especially given that a lot of the junk comes in via air freight of all things!
> unwilling (cough Apple and USB-C) to do the right thing on its own.
There was, and still is, no reason that Apple should have been forced to adopt USB-C with the proliferation of Lightning on the market - a connector with significantly more lifetime and reliability than USB-C. If you want a device with USB-C, go pick an Android device that ships with USB-C. Forcing these regulations has just forced everyone to sell the same amorphous brick of glass and sand under the guise of "consumer choice".
(And remember: It's okay when Google goes anti-competitive, but it's not okay when Apple does it! --Margrethe Vestager)
> they all push stuff into Europe that violates these standards and can be sold cheaper as a result.
I understand that and I agree that it should be regulated. But on the other hand, I can order 50 zippers on Temu for 2$, and if I go to a local store they sell one for 10$. I bought both, and they are exactly the same.
So one zipper on Temu costs 4 cents, versus 10$ in a local store. That's 250x more expensive. Doesn't seem reasonable.
Maybe the one in the local store wouldn’t need to be $10 if more people bought them there? Also, they need to charge for the risk of putting the crap on the shelf without testing it first.
How do you tell that you did not get any from a lot that was dyed/painted with a cheaper but toxic color?
Are you saying that the local merchant tests it and that's why they sell it at 250x the price?
I said 10$, but it depends on the length. So 60cm is maybe 10$, 70cm is 12$, 80cm is 13.50. So you would say that testing the 70cm variant of the zipper is worth 2$ more than testing the paint on the 60cm variant?
My point is that at this price, if I don't get the zipper on Temu, I don't get it at all. I won't pay 10$ for a zipper of this quality.
I've noticed a similar 'this profit margin seems almost vulgar' on the same store shelf.
As you showed with slightly longer zippers.. I notice with car fob remote batteries. An 8 pack is $12 at the store. The same brand, a single will be $5. A 2pack is $7. And the 8pack $12. Do you really need to make $4 on selling me a single? I know shelf space is valuable, but the same store sells things for $1 too on another shelf so apparently <$1 profit shelf space is possible.
Given how small the batteries are, they probably have similar costs for shipping and handling. So there's a cost to get _anything_ to the local store, plus the cost of the actual goods.
> I bought both, and they are exactly the same.
They are not. With the one you buy at your local store, you get the two years warranty, and should the thing contain, say, lead paint you can hold the seller accountable.
Good luck doing the same against Temu.
In addition, you pay a markup at the physical store for stockkeeping. Yeah sure, I can order the small capacitor for some fried PLC adapter on Amazon. No doubt. But I'll need to wait about two days for shipping, whereas the local electronics store has it right now when I need it.
> They are not. With the one you buy at your local store, you get the two years warranty
And with the Temu one I get 250 units for the same price. I don't know how often you break a zipper, but 250x in two years sounds like a lot :-).
> should the thing contain, say, lead paint you can hold the seller accountable.
I understand what you are saying, but honestly I doubt they check every 10cm of every zipper for traces of lead (or other). If there is ever an issue, maybe (?) they will recall them somehow, but I probably won't ever know (say I paid cash, they don't have a way to contact me at all, and with a credit card I'm not sure if they can / will find my contact ever).
> But I'll need to wait about two days for shipping, whereas the local electronics store has it right now when I need it.
Sure! But the fact is that I'm absolutely fine waiting 2 days if it costs me 250x less. Actually with Temu it's more a few weeks, I would think? Still worth it for zippers.
If the zipper was sold for 1$ in the local store, that would be different. But 10$? At this point I just don't want the zipper at all. So in a way it's not really "Temu vs local store". If I don't get it on Temu, I don't get it at all.
If you leave your personal gain aside for one moment, don’t you see how that just means you’ll throw 246 of them away because you don’t need them, minus the three replacements for the bad quality? Don’t you see how that cannot be positive, to have so much waste, instead of proper QA and manufacturers doing the right thing for fear of litigation? These manufacturers pay taxes and employ people. Both of these contribute to our wealth. Making it harder for local businesses to sustain themselves will lower or quality of life. This may not relate to your zippers immediately, but allowing vendors like Temu to exploit our economy by undercutting it has negative effects, which you are supporting with your actions.
> If you leave your personal gain aside for one moment, don’t you see how that just means you’ll throw 246 of them away because you don’t need them
I didn't say I would get 250 of them, I said the price was 250x more expensive in the local store.
> These manufacturers pay taxes and employ people.
Would you buy a coke for 55$ if I told you "look, these manufacturers pay taxes and employ people"? Or do you have a notion of "this is too expensive for what it is"?
> This may not relate to your zippers immediately, but allowing vendors like Temu to exploit our economy by undercutting it has negative effects, which you are supporting with your actions.
Just like you didn't read properly that I was not actually ordering 250 zippers, you didn't read my first message properly. Let me write it again slightly differently:
I do agree that it needs to be regulated. But on the other hand, sometimes it seems so extreme that it's difficult to believe that the local store is not abusing. At this price, I just can't afford the zipper.
for 250x price difference I don't care about the warranty.
Here in Spain from time to time (near Christmas) often they fine some warehouses/companies sending cheap toys to dollar stores with no safety regulation and often with toxic paints. No, they aren't the same. And if some of the stuff from our 'dollar stores' are slightly dangerous, some stuff from Temu or Shein (hello plastic clothes) can be midly dingerous over time.
You can have similar crap on AliExpress but the quality at AE it's far better for electronics at least.
As I mentioned from the beginning on: I do agree that it needs to be regulated, and I do agree that some QA is needed.
However, I find it hard to believe that because of that QA, a 0.04$ zipper now costs 10$. And the fact that the 60cm zipper costs 10$ and the 70cm one costs 12$ tells me that the local stores (or whatever intermediate responsible for the price) are simply abusing.
In other words, it feels like there is a responsibility on the side of the local stores: I want a zipper, I can't afford 10$ for one, so either I don't get a zipper at all, or I get it on Temu. In any case, the local merchant is screwed. Now if I get a zipper on Temu, suddenly I see all the cheap crap I can order from there, and I presume my local merchant abuse on their price in exactly the same way (which may or may not be right). So the local merchant "pushed me" towards Temu with their abusive prices.
>With the one you buy at your local store, you get the two years warranty, and should the thing contain, say, lead paint you can hold the seller accountable.
I'm not sure how it works in the EU, but here in the USA I'd guess that the vast majority of those zippers are just ordered from Temu and marked up. And good luck holding the "seller accountable" if the zipper doesn't end up meeting your standards.
Just to be clear those things you buy on Temu must have by law a representative in the EU which would be the entity responsible if you are poisoned by whatever you buy.
Also: fuck local merchants. They have scammed us for a lifetime. They can all close for all I care.
Those local merchants pay the taxes that fund your streets, your schools, your hospitals, and all the other things you take for granted every day.
> Just to be clear those things you buy on Temu must have by law a representative in the EU which would be the entity responsible if you are poisoned by whatever you buy.
Yup, the "EC Representative". Some LLC paper company that's probably going to just fold over when you hit them with a claim.
So you're saying that existing regulations don't work, so we should fix it by adding more regulations? What if they also won't work?
I don’t know much about the legal code. But when my computer code doesn’t work I don’t think of fixing it in terms of “add more code or don’t,” but rather “remove the bad code (if necessary) and add some good code (if necessary).”
Most chinese products pass EU standards, after all they want to sell to europe. These are rare exceptions.
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Looking at the "CE" logo issue, we know chinese companies try to cheat their products around regulations.
Was there a vote on what the correct drawstring length should be? How about a vote on the person who wrote those regulations specifying the length?
By taking a look you'll find that regulations are commonly written by civil servants and various experts (which are typically not chosen by a vote) and then approved by people that you do get to choose by a vote.
On both sides of the pond.
We vote on the representatives, who in turn spend an awful lot of time talking to all sorts of interest groups - manufacturers, other parts of the economic chain, consumer and environmental protection organizations, lawyers, industry organizations, god knows what else - and in the end usually come up with decent regulations as a result.
I agree that the results can be sometimes weird, sometimes annoying, and sometimes outright dumb. But I'll rather pay that price than not have USB-C, two year product warranties, no lead in kids' toys or access to clean and safe drinking water.
I may be a bit jaded here, but: $politician is shocked by $problemKnownForDecades. These people's outside face is more an opera actor than a real person. So the actual message is probably: Some political faction has decided to push for legislation and needs to sell it to the public.
Combined with the USA's preparation for war on China, the Russia invasion in Ukraine, and the Trump trade war: It seems the EU is aligning itself with the USA againts China, and has to sell this to an anti-Trump citizenship
> Some political faction has decided to push for legislation and needs to sell it to the public.
Yes. Chinese direct sales have no taxes (as they divide orders to below the taxable amount). So, taxes are coming to Chinese goods and this is the start of that process. It makes sense to remove that loophole that gives advantage to foreign made products over local ones. So, the goal seems a good one.
It sure would help if Trump wasn't constantly attacking our way of life.
Are we finally witnessing the end of dropshipping?
I'm not a friend of EU regulators in general, but complaining about Chinese imports is an easy PR-win. If a country can compe up with something like "Gutter Oil" being a thing, procured by mom-and-pops, sold to restaurants nearby, which then shove it down the throats of their customers nearby, there must be such little accountability and remorse from the producer side in general in the PRC that putting more distance between vendors and customers can only result in more toxins. Europeans have no idea about the brazenness there.
A good strawman argument like politician like it before trying to push some new shitty regulations.
It's not like local business were not already selling wrong and counterfeiting products.
AKA cheap crap is cheap crap.
Innocent question...Are those goods also not available via Amazon?
So answer is yes, what makes the downvotes even more suspicious
https://www.reddit.com/r/FrugalFemaleFashion/comments/1gsy4h...
tbh not surprised
Surprised it shocking.
Cheaper isn't always safer.
Wait till people find out where they make the expensive one.
Often on the same machine and in the same factory.
Oh yeah the invisible hand of market that works after hundreds of children die should cover for that /s
because they die at a much lower rate when exactly the same trash is bought from local outfits importing them from China for a hefty fee? /s
[dead]
[flagged]
I think this is an artful position to hold in response to an article about imports from China to the EU.
[flagged]
[flagged]
Is there a reason why the toxic chemicals, choking hazards or lack of UV filter on sunglasses are intentionally ignored? Also, could there perhaps be a reason for the length being regulated or do you think they just do that cause they got nothing better to do? Maybe the article even mentions the reason in the same sentence.
Read about the effects of the Thhalioamide, or the wine scandal in Germany/Austria (can't remember), and then you'll know why regulations are needed.
[flagged]
[flagged]
Yes, I do indeed remember the days of leaded gasoline and “smoking or non-smoking?” I much prefer the way things are now, thankyouverymuch.
Some things have gotten better, some things have gotten worse... much worse.
Incidentally, dental floss is also affected by this stupid regulation treadmill. The new PFAS-free stuff is absolute shit. Maybe it's less harmful in some way according to the politicised "studies", but I just don't give a fuck anymore when all they're doing is making our quality of life worse.
your reply has nothing to do with the comment you thought you are replying to.
[flagged]
I only need to watch a handful of bigclive teardown videos of cheap USB-C chargers to understand that.. actually... I hope they do.
Otherwise more peoples houses will be burning down while people sleep inside them, or going to hospital with terrible electrical burns, or worse.
[flagged]
Yes, a choking hazard in a baby toy is pretty bad.
Fair, fair. I'm over-accustomed to markets where standards and expectations are tilted far in the "caveat emptor" direction—where people are still working on big things like "don't use poison to make your turmeric look yellower."
I think what made me react (with fondness, not criticism, to be clear) was the framing: casually noting the departure from the technical standard specifically regulating "hole diameter adequate for sufficient airflow upon accidental swallowing in baby-facing bead-related amusement products" or what have you.
Not only have they thought about that very specific aspect of a choking hazard, but they've figured out what the right parameters are, published them, and hold manufacturers to them—and that specific dimension of the problem is common enough knowledge that a Guardian journalist just tosses it off casually for a general audience.
Additionally it's probably a rule that was written in blood and it also isn't an obvious feature that someone would know about and base their purchase decision on.
I'm fairly certain just about every single half decent parent is completely obsessed with anything that might even possibly be a choking hazard. Kids are surprisingly strong and capable of completely chimping things to shreds. If there's choking zone beads on a toy, it's not getting bought, regardless of whether or not if they have 'ventilation holes' in them.
No, it's so much worse than anyone could have imagined. For example: "kids’ shorts with drawstrings longer than regulation length, which cause a trip hazard."
Indeed. Judging by the voting patterns here, there's a nontrivial faction that's become addicted to Big Government.
The EU has this pathetic protectionist attitude. They are sore losers when it comes to manufacturing, energy and IT. With IT they are trying to bully these US companies all the time. With energy we've overregulated nuclear and are importing natural gas en masse, all while proclaiming to be green.
Instead of getting angry that other countries can do things better, we should focus on getting better ourselves! Get our energy, manufacturing and IT sorted out! This is pathetic.
> With IT they are trying to bully these US companies all the time.
Correct me if I got this wrong but aren’t the US States with the strongest (and incidentally most EU like) data privacy regulations the very States where said US companies have most of their operations? Why is that, is California trying to bully Californian enterprise?
Enjoy your cancer at 50's them. Or a blindless because of alcohol adulteration as it happened in Spain and Austria:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Austrian_diethylene_gly...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Methanol_Poisonings
I'm not saying regulation is bad, but overregulation is. It's counter intutive. See my reaction to arp242 for better articulated arguments :)
Over-regulation being "anything you don't like" ?
Or do you have objective criteria - other than "gets in the way of making money"?
Genuinely curious.
"(...) kids’ shorts with drawstrings longer than regulation length (...)"
We really overrregulate things here in the EU. It was a great run, we've had access to great Chinese stuff for a while now. Maybe around 2007-ish the direct-to-consumer imports started.
It has really helped me to acquire tools and eletrical components cheaply, where no other supplier was able to offer it at a good price or at all. Hopefuly the EU will fail to keep this in check so that the party can continue.
That quote does continue with "which cause a trip hazard".
I have no idea what the trip hazard on that is, or how many children tripped on these types of strings. Do you? It seems to me that any opinion without this information is not an informed opinion.
Additionally, pretty much all of the other examples seem far more serious. Quoting only that one bit is not a fair representation of the article on that account either.
Additionally additionally, some corporations not following the regulations is just unfair competition. Not hard to be cheaper than everyone else if you decide to dump slop with toxic chemicals. That some of the regulations might be bad is somewhat besides the point here. There is a democratic process for changing them if you don't like them.
We all want safe products. Regulating products is a bit like the war on drugs. Drugs are bad, so you criminalize it. Seems logical, right? In reality, we have many case studies where this has actually worsened the situation, as it pushes the drugs into the underworld. This is how regulation can be counter-intuitive.
I'm so cynical and passionate about this overregulation because I've had to deal with it myself in aviation and medical. When you read the regulations, everything makes sense. It basically says: "reduce risk". In reality, companies spend (in my experience) insane amounts of resources on paperwork to prove they are safe, which is completely detached from reality. It's a paper excercise. It's bureaucratic bloat that slipped in over the years. It seems to make sense at the surface, but actually is counterproductive.
Why? Any sane business wants to minimize risks at all costs. Those who don't, will at best get a terrible reputation. There should be regulation of course, just no overregulation. It's like bloated code. There should be code of couse, just no needless abstractions as it just drags everything down.
It's just that I'm seeing a pattern where we are cynical towards other countries and are simply too self-congratulating with our own regulatory situation. As a continent/union we're showing signs being a bad sport. Instead of saying how bad everybody else is, why not make good stuff ourselves instead?
We can't compete because our energy is insanely expensive. Zoning and compliance get in the way of business. Lack of raw resource acquisition (we have to import raw materials). High taxes. Labour shortages, overly strong unions. All the ugly things we'd rather not talk about, the "boring" problems that have to be adresses one by one. We're inefficient and cannot compete on many things globally and have to rely on imports. That inefficiency needs to be adressed!
You have not actually answered the question. So still an uninformed opinion and you don't know if this is "over-regulation" or not if you don't know the facts. You can write endless paragraphs of ideology and cynicism to justify your uninformed opinion, but that does not change it's an uninformed opinion, and can be dismissed as such.
I would buy a Chinese Thinkpad-like clone netbook with no issues from AliExpress, some of them are pretty neat. But I'd run away from a 99% of stuff sold at Temu and Shein.